Was Ten Hag doomed at Man Utd the minute he failed to sign Frenkie de Jong?

The second Mailbox after the latest Man Utd debacle starts with an excellent point. Plus, views on that winning Newcastle side…

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Ten Hag doomed when De Jong said no
The morning after a match as a Man United fan (well me anyway) is like waking up with a hangover. Naturally as I get older when I wake up I’m not the freshest, but now there is that brief moment of calm and then memories of the previous night start to resurface – shame, embarrassment, the swearing to Gods long gone that it will never happen again in a vein attempt to offer some kind of respite from the pain.

Anyway, I digress…

Was ETH completely f**ked the moment he didn’t get De Jong? Did it irrevocably start him down a path of compromise? Even in our most glorious moments last season it was still playing in a something akin to the ‘United Way’ (well the modern version anyway), and not ETH’s methodology. Casemiro was great last season, but he doesn’t dictate things in a way that ETH hoped De Jong would. Now Cas’s legs are starting to go in a downturn that would make the housing market blush the writing is seemingly on the wall in regards to his United’s future, but at this rate he will outlast ETH.

Because of the money involved with Cas we were never going to be able to sign someone else (Rice, Caicedo etc) to do that role because unfortunately for United we have many holes to plug so we would simply have to make do with this particular world-class defensive midfielder at the base. Unfortunately for ETH it wasn’t the world-class DM he wanted and his preferred style of play comes a bit stuck early on in the process of an attack – we then revert back to a style of play that the manager is not completely comfortable as he’s compromising and here we are, the football equivalent of no man’s land.

Yes this is all conjecture and yes I’m being overly dramatic but currently it’s all I have.

Anyway back to the pseudo-hangover.
Chris, Stourbridge

Man Utd’s defence is indefensible
Look, I like laughing at United’s suffering. And I’ve laughed a lot over the last decade. But the current pile-on into ETH is unfair (or misdirected. Talk about how much he likes to defend sex offenders if that’s your bag).

The fact is his defense is going through an injury crisis. Not a huge one, sure. And the guys playing are individually very good for backups (and as much as we may meme about Maguire and Evans, these are rock solid players). But having your defenders in bits undermines all the rest of your play.

Just look how the untouchable Liverpool just collapsed without any centre-backs at all. Until they threw in Nat Phillips and Rhys Williams. Neither of whom (even with my Liver-tinted goggles on) are as good as 35-year-old Johnny Evans. Then everything settled.

The difference is that Liverpool had worked out their system, and just had to restore it. ETH is trying to build something, and can’t, because the foundation is merely the most expensive defender in history. How can you work with that?

Okay, so maybe you can attack him a bit. But I still feel that a lot of the rest of the problems in the side – chance creation, finishing, Bruno throwing tantrums, not how many right wingers are currently in exile – stem from the back. And until they sort that out, intricate up-field play will be difficult.
Andrew M, Streatham

Man Utd surely have to HOLD
I remember a scene in Braveheart where Mel Gibson’s William Wallace is shouting “HOLD!” over and over again as his army is attacked, waiting for the right moment to enact his cunning plan. And whilst I am far from convinced that Ten Hag has much of a plan, let alone a cunning one, United have no real choice but to hold right now and see what happens.

I am sure everyone is seeing those stats about home losses and United’s historically/hysterically (take your pick) terrible start, and I am also sure that the Twatteriti will soon have Ten Hag Out trending if it isn’t already, but he has to stay. Sacking him now will only make things worse, and I doubt very much that there is a succession plan in place.

READ: The leading contenders to be next Manchester United manager if they sack Erik ten Hag

I don’t think he is the right man for this job. He says stupid things when a camera is in front of him, and it is clear he is buckling under the pressure. He is having to manage a lot of precious, spoilt egos, and in the modern game, this is a gigantic part of managing big clubs, and I don’t think he has the skillset to do this.

His team is underperforming, it lacks leaders and it lacks character, and Ten Hag is not the cure for this. I expect him to hang on for the season, turn a few corners here and there, but his best chance of silverware disappeared last night and the season will continue to be underwhelming. And then a decision has to be made, but at least at that point there might be a plan, what are we up to by now, k?

But he has to stay for now because there is no other choice.

Perhaps he will get the team to gel, get a bit of luck, and do enough to hang on. I for one hope he does, because I can’t see him getting United back to where they want to be, but I can see him flattering to deceive enough to stay in situ for two or three years.

But regardless of what this Liverpool fan thinks/hopes, United need to hold and stand by their man, and the rest of us can order a job lot of popcorn.
Matthew (Nunez or Hojlund? Hmm, that’s a real head scratcher)

Better of two evils?
Funny how Newcastle suddenly improved when they stopped recycling managers and their toxic owner Ashley finally sold up.

Still – I’d rather be shit than the plaything of a murderous regime.
Kevin, Man United

This guy seems to be enjoying it…
Well last night was fun.

One point under-mentioned in the reporting on Man U’s latest mini crisis is how weak the Newcastle team looked, at least on paper. With so many injuries or tired players there were six fullbacks, no regular CBs, and no regular strikers in the starting XI. No Guimaraes, Botman, Trippier, Isak. I actually laughed reading it. Sky couldn’t fit it in a formation and thought Matt Targett was playing left forward.

Man U had also rotated (less) but the stark difference was that 8 players came in for Newcastle and played like Newcastle – pressing, work rate, fast direct transitions and counters that together made each goal. Whereas Man U players came in and had no cohesion, seemingly limited work rate, and shockingly bad discipline. Hannibal and Casemiro both picked up early yellows then committed more heavy fouls within minutes. They spent the rest of the half being overrun by Longstaff and Willock. Half the team switched off for the second goal. And all that is because of culture and coaching – Newcastle have a manager who’s just right for the club and Man U seem to have a club that doesn’t work for any manager.

There’s the same gulf in transfer philosophy. Newcastle’s stars on the night were youth fullbacks from Chelsea and Southampton who could still be regulars in those positions in 2033. Man U already need to replace their main man midfielder from Real Madrid, their top signing from 2022 – the same mistake as CR7, a truly elite signing once but with perhaps only a year left at the top level when signed. Soon he’ll have to be replaced and the cycle will begin again.

I don’t really know if Ten Hag is the right man or not – and I think they have good enough players to still do well this year with the right leadership – but they do look like they need an overhaul everywhere.

Newcastle now have big games against Arsenal then Dortmund – but when we get back to carabao I hope Howe tries to win it. The club and city have been without trophies so long that it would be massive, and 4 games of tired legs would be more than worth it.

Well done Eddie
Roger (Newcastle in London)

And this fella
I was not optimistic when I saw the Toon line up last night. It looked like a team to maybe try hold ManU at arm’s length at best, until the last 15 minutes, where we could bring on a few first teamers to try and nick a win or equalizer, but how wrong I was.

This really showed as well as any game we have played over the Howe era, how much the whole squad (who remain at St James’) have bought into Howe’s methods. Everyone gave what they had and playing with an energy, commitment and togetherness that just seems beyond that opposition at the moment.

It was awful to see Targett go off so early when we are already in the middle of an injury crisis, but there were so many other good news stories on the night; Krafth back, Willock back to near his best and a long overdue win at Old Trafford.

Personally I wasn’t looking for ‘revenge’ for the final last year, but growing up in the 90’s I’ll always savour a win over the reds, no matter what state they happen to find themselves in. I feel a bit sorry for Ten Hag as he has a lot of chaos to deal with, but he does look a bit defeated now and I wonder would he be happier with more time or a mercy killing.

A bit disappointed with the next round draw though, I expect if we make it past Chelsea we’ll be meeting Liverpool (the team I wanted to avoid most in the next round) in the semis. Oh well. This campaign will really take a toll on what is an eager but thin squad, really hope we can bring in one or two quality additions in the January window, but wherever we end up at the end of the season, if the squad keep giving their all like last night I for one will be very happy.
Derek from Dundalk

The Parable of the Terrible Owners
I love my company, but I hate my job. I used to love it. I work for a hugely successful company that got taken over by new owners several years ago. When they first took over, they didn’t change much, they were happy to milk the cash cow of our success and line their pockets. We had great senior leaders at the time and so the owners didnt really impact my day to day life.

However over the following years, we began to notice their influence. Investment in certain areas dried up. My mates were all moving into state of the art buildings, with gyms, cafes and social facilities. Whereas I was still working in a crumbling shed of a building with a vending machine. We stopped getting new laptops every few years and had to make do with ancient kit not up to the job that we needed it to do. They also cut travel allowances and reduced our flexible working hours. Everything was done on the cheap and any additional spend over and above people was seen as unnecessary.

The senior leadership team was also replaced. No longer did we have management that were passionate about our products and services or invested in working culture and respecting of our history, all they were interested in was our sales targets, our bottom line. That became their strategy. Always trying to find ways to cut corners, to spend less, slowly eroding the very fabric of the organisation.

Then started the revolving door of middle managers. A mis-match Product and Project Managers were swapped in and out. Some, on paper highly qualified, some not so. All of them trying to impose their ways of working on the rest of the teams. Initially, the change of direction could be positive and they’d often lift motivation. But this was always short-lived as their influence can only spread so far against the the owners simple formula of wanting to generate revenue. In addition, it’s hugely frustrating to spend a year or so working in one way, only for that to be totally ripped up by the next manager who seems to want to go about things completely differently.

Also, the people around me began to change, we stopped getting in the best talent, the passionate and the hungry, people who really cared about our company what we were doing, but instead we’d get in expensive contractors hand-picked by the incumbent manager, who were only here for the daily rate, and who always had one eye on the exit door in case things took a downturn.

The result is that we now have such a dysfunctional workforce, with begrudging and resentment rife.

And, there is still no sign of the new building or a better staff canteen, or a gym or a replacement for the vending machine. In fact, all of those things just seem to get progressively worse. They even sold off the staff car-park so we all had to find places to park in the streets nearby

There are still a few of us who care, a few of us who can remember what we once meant, but we are not many and the tide of decay is impossible to swim against. And so now, I have joined the posse of the disillusioned. I wake up on a Monday morning with a sense of hopeless dread about what the week will bring. Zero enthusiasm, zero motivation, just looking forward to the day being over so I can forget about work and go home.

The weird thing is that the people on the outside would never know as we keep posting record profits each quarter, so on paper, we are still a hugely successful company. And this despite our products now being bang average. You dont need quality when you can find ways to achieve quantity.

As I said at the start, I love my company, but I hate my job.

Now then… I was going to write in about Manchester United.
Richard, Manchester

Daddy made you some content
‘Perhaps not yet to super-club levels, which is where United still see themselves, even if their actions speak differently.’

This is a line from your article about possible next managers of Man Utd, and it’s true. The actions at every level are well below the elite expectations of a super-club.

However, it can’t be lost that they continue to get covered by the media more than any other club. This morning, for example, the first 19 (!) articles on F365 are about Man Utd.

If, as the Ballon D’or article suggests, football is more about content these days then Man Utd are the lolling king of the ludicrous super-club castle.
Doug, Glasgow

Hav a go hero
Fair point by Stewie about Havertz. All for giving him a chance but this transfer hasn’t really worked out and is limiting the chances of better players like Smith Rowe.

Also a fair point about Willock – he would be an infinitely better squad player than Havertz.

However, while nobody likes to get knocked out of a cup, it’s benefitted Spurs not being in this tournament – so why not Arsenal?
Graham Simons, Gooner, Norf London