Spurs are fun to watch but are they also dirty and cynical, mate?

Spurs fans are queuing up to tell us they love this version of their team, but are they also dirty? Plus, loads of mails on VAR. Still.

Send your views to theeditor@football365.com

This is not end of this Spurs
I can see (and hear) rival football fans salivating at the prospect of Spurs going all Spursy and absolutely falling apart due to craziest 30 minutes of football I’ve ever seen. Truly bonkers stuff.

And this may say more about Chelsea than it does about us, but please remember this: we had 9 men, 1 of those men being Eric Dier, we played on the half way line and we (mentally enough) still could have genuinely come away with a draw.

Missing 75% of our first-choice defence is not great. Not great for any team. But for Spurs, with a lack of depth – especially not. Then Madders looked crocked too. A huge huge miss. However, I genuinely believe we’d have got the W on Monday night with any combination of 11 players on the pitch. Yes, that includes the likes of Pierre and Eric. Again, that may say more about Chelsea than Spurs.

Brennan was looking sharp. He can feel unlucky but Saturday will come quickly and listen to this guys. Just listen! Vicario (statistically and subjectively the best keeper in the league) in between the sticks. A front 3 of Sonny, Johnson and Kulu. Sounds tremendous so far, huh? Then get this…a potential midfield 3 of Papa, Yves and RODRIGO. I know he’s different to Maddison and doesn’t take away from what a miss James is. However, if you can’t get excited about that mid 3, you’re prob not a Spurs fan.

So; goalie, check. Beautifully fluid front 3 check? Sexy midfield? Check. Okay okay. I haven’t particularly saved the best till last and this is where we may come unstuck but I’m not upset with Porro and Emerson as fullbacks (Royal is one of our few genuinely decent back-ups). Then….Dier + one of Pierre or Davies?! Mmmmm. At least we will have a strong, shouty, warrior spirit in the heart of defence.

It was ludicrous stuff. It’s not ideal. I hear ya. But I’m still gonna say we win on Saturday against Wolves. The Spurs fans saw the effort. The desire. The style of play. That’s why after getting spanked 4-1, on our home turf, by one of our most hated rivals, led by our most loved ex-manager (of the modern era), they still sung, applauded and lauded our team. An unthinkable scenario just 4 months ago.

We are doing things and going places. Relax everyone.
Glen, Stratford Spur

It was proper fun
Some late observations from being at the game on Monday night.

The atmosphere was incredible right to the end. Spurs fans can turn very quickly but I didn’t see any of that. Even when Dier came on we were singing his name and for one glorious second I thought he’d scored and saved the day. Football is wonderful, even if momentarily.

VAR is ridiculous. The amount of checks and confusion going on throughout the game just left everyone wondering what the hell was going on for a huge chunk of it. 21 minutes of extra time!! Yes, some down to injury but I’d wager the majority was down to VAR.

Sterling must wonder what the hell he’s doing there. It’s quite telling he got the assist to get them to 2-1 (although it took 20 minutes against 9 men!!!).

Mudryk really is either lacking in confidence or just not very good. I could see Poch pointing at Cucurella to get the ball to him and from where we were sat that was a good thing.

The only real aggravating thing of the night was the drive home listening to Jason f**king Cundy on TalkSport calling Big Ange arrogant over, and over, and over again. He was acting like Chelsea showed they could play and things were changing etc. I know they’re on that station to wind people up, so consider me wound, but my word. Had to switch it off.

All in all it was a fun game of football and the result flattered them. I’d rather we go for it instead of sitting back and losing anyway with that makeshift defence.

COYS.
Jon (my word Son can run and run), Lincoln

…I’m a Spurs fan and am loving it so far this season. I’m pretty sure that fans of Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea etc would have hated the approach if their team had done the same, but those clubs are built to win, built so the ends justify the means. I know this is professional sport and it should all be about winning, I also know that a club the size of Spurs, with the money we generate and spend should also make shineys a basic return. But for us and 99% of the other teams it’s not as important.

Liverpool went down to 9 players and adopted the low block and lost, we did the opposite and had chances to score. High risk and maybe not sensible but we loved it. Never been to a game where the atmosphere was so amazing after a loss at home to a rival, bizarre stuff.

For me, football should be a pleasure, a break from normal life for a few hours a week and stick a big appreciative smile on your face. I talk to my son about the greats of the game in my generation, Gazza, Lineker (Just), Shearer, Henry, Bale, Gerrard, Dembele, Zola, Drogba, Ginola and loads of others. I’ve no idea what their medal haul is, probably huge, but I just don’t care, they were players who their fans loved and other fans couldn’t help but appreciate. If we wanted a flat list of medals to determine their greatness then we could just look at Wikipedia I guess.
Steve (Loving big Ange) THFC

All we want is consistency…
…and we got it on Monday.

On Saturday Kai Havertz went in for a wild, out of control lunge that would certainly have endangered the opposition player if he hadn’t missed my millimetres. He received a yellow card.

On Monday exactly the same thing happened with Destiny Udogie.

On Saturday Bruno Guimaraes elbowed Jorginho in the head and VAR totally ignored it and let play go on.

On Monday Reece James did the same.

A few weeks ago Curtis Jones won the ball but followed through onto his opponent’s leg and received a yellow card that was subsequently upgraded to red.

On Monday Cristian Romero shared that experience.

We might have no idea what rules are going to be enforced any more, but the referees do seem to be choosing a few they like and sticking with them.

Away from the refs, that was the most animated I have been watching Spurs in years. I don’t really mind that we lost, as such (although I would rather that performance had been against almost anyone except Chelsea) but I am thrilled to have the passion back, and that is all thanks to Ange. The big challenge now is to rally the troops and rebuild for the next few games and to stop the idiotic moments. Bissouma sent off for a dive against Luton and now Romero and Udogie both shitting the bed. Time to mix a bit of maturity in with all the fun please.

Peace and love,
Harry, a still very happy Spurs fan

Are Spurs a dirty side?
Watching the game on Monday night and the sycophantic commentary towards Ange Postecoglou, it made me think. When are we going to talk about the lack of discipline that ‘Big Ange’ is fostering in this Tottenham team?

That’s 31 yellow and 3 red cards in 11 games for Tottenham. By comparison, Man City 18/2, Liverpool 19/4 and Arsenal 16/1.

I get that everyone loves the Spurs manager because he calls people ‘mate’ and plays attacking football but when does that stop papering over the fact that actually, this is also a pretty dirty, cynical team?
Stew, London

We’re loving angles instead?
​Who doesn’t love an angle? Angle of a shot, angle of the goal. What isn’t loved, is angles in VAR and angles in the press.

Liverpool complain about injustices – everyone champions them
Arsenal complain about injustices – Whiny babies who can’t hack it
Spurs get beat 4-1 by a POOR Chelsea side, somehow it’s all about how brave they were with 9 men, and how Ange was magnanimous of the two sendings-off.

It is really easy to be magnanimous when they could have both been sent off BEFORE they were, and weren’t. It is easy to be magnanimous when you haven’t been aggrieved.

Arteta may be a dickhead, but he is our dickhead, like Mourinho was whichever club he was ats dickhead. But that he is somehow worse than all the others is bullshit. I come from the era of Ferguson bullying refs in game and from his media pulpit. The idea that Arteta has invented getting mardy is BS. Also, Ange was booked for contesting decisions, so maybe all Arteta has to do to placate the media is add mate to his vocabulary.

At the end of the day, VAR and refereeing have declined in quality and accuracy. We should all call them out. This is a multibillion dollar business, with a very real financial impact on the clubs who are harmed by their incompetence.
John Matrix AFC

What was that, Levi Colwill?
Hardly the main talking point from that mental game on Monday night I know but can I please just bring up the rather sour tasting issue of play acting? So much happened which makes this issue not being mentioned understandable. And I know I sound like an old dinosaur but its just not right.

Yes Romero did a Beckham and tapped Colwill on the back of the calf – shouldn’t have done it – but Colwill’s reaction – just like Simeone’s back in ’98 – was in my opinion 100 times more worthy of a caution. Yes we know why they do it – but it aint right is it? Colwill went down absolutely pole-axed – screaming, rolling around, arms in the air – 2 physios on – who spent about 4-5 minutes attending to him – obviously with only one intention – to make such a drama of the incident so that the ref would have a look and have no option but to send Romero off for the ‘tap’.

Thankfully, and unusually Michael Oliver saw it for what it was and took no action. Good. What would have been great would be if he’d red carded Colwill and his team of physios for a blatant con trick attempt. I’m sorry but I refuse to believe that you should do everything possible to gain an advantage, no matter how underhand. I never have and never will. If indeed Romero had done anything that was especially out of order and dangerous – which he clearly didn’t – then fine – use VAR or whatever to deal with it. But watching grown men rolling around screaming with one intention – to con the ref into taking action – is just pathetic. It isn’t WWE – it’s football.

Incoming cliched dinosaur quote ‘you wouldn’t have seen Stuart Pearce doing that in a million years’. That’s why football fans in general all still love him and respect him.
S.Hunt – LFC

Filth
Lads, we all know you’re at the peak of physical conditioning and that you’ve got thighs like puppies fighting in a pillow case – but this new widespread obsession in the PL to keep repeatedly pulling the bottom of your shorts up to show off a shuddering upper leg is getting properly tiresome.

This is football, not the WWE, have a paragraph with yourself.
James Hendry

Arsenal should have kept schtum
Bit late off the mark with this one, but Arsenal’s statement has really bothered me.

We used to be a club who did everything behind closed doors. You didn’t have a clue when we were making a signing or how much we paid and usually the club would generally take punishment with good grace, even if the players and management didn’t.

I get what the club was trying to do but I’d rather stayed silent.

But as for those trying to claim Spurs somehow gained a moral victory on Monday night and had a better weekend than us, the respective clubs’ goal difference says different.

If Arsenal did what Spurs did on Monday, Stewie would have lost his mind.
Graham Simons, Gooner, Norf London

Sigh…VAR isn’t the problem
Here is your (potentially monthly) reminder, the problem is not VAR. Pretty much every single sport in the world has some form of VAR. It has different names, different rules, different cameras. What they all do not have however is daily/weekly absolutely monumental errors.

The Rugby World cup had plenty of discussion around refereeing decisions. Some slightly more controversial than others.

However, the refs are micced up so you can hear their reasoning. And their reasoning was always sound even if you disagreed with them. Their conversations with VAR are micced up and the tv screen visible for everyone to see. There is logic applied vs the rules in the majority of cases. In a game where 15 men crash into 15 men for 80 minutes, they barely miss a beat and the game is rarely interrupted for VAR unless necessary.

So just to remind everyone, VAR is not the problem. The football referees, I.e. the people behind VAR, can’t or won’t enforce the rules and seem to add a monumental amount of subjectivity to decisions. The excuse is “football is a fast paced sport so it’s different” which is frankly bulls***. Please blame the right people
Rob A (in a high contact sport like rugby, Bruno and Havertz would have probably seen red…) AFC

Stop calling it VAR
It’s other refs watching replays. Nothing high tech about it. It is not Hawk-Eye in the 2000s. The only technology is the goal line technology and it works perfect.

Don’t stop the game. There is enough of refs to have someone watch replays as another keeps watching real time.

Get rid of the rule that says the game cannot be brought back and just play on. A wrong decision is a wrong decision. Or make it 1 min or so. Lots could happen but that’s just so there is a point where it’s over with and people can get over the mistakes instead of demanding games are replayed.

Get rid of most of its rules. Simplify it. It is other refs watching replays.

In its current format it is just part of the entertainment package. Content.
Zdravko Tashev

The VAR genie is out of the bottle
I’m an Arsenal fan but in terms of views on VAR I’m completely with big Ange.

The genie’s out of the bottle and will never go back in.

I find it laughable that the referees get blamed for this, they were not the ones demanding for VAR, from what I can gather most were against it and as a result referees have far less power to officiate games as they can be undermined at any point.

Those calling for VAR are the reason we are in this mess, yet I don’t see any of them taking responsibility for this.

There was no need to ruin the simplicity of football with VAR just because VAR was used in less popular sports in the pursuit of perfection that can never happen as the laws of the game are based on interpretation not physical facts.

This can never be fixed, going back to a pre-VAR world is impossible, can you imagine the managers, medias and fans reaction every time there is an obvious mistake picked up by the cameras but missed by refs, the football world will go into melt down.

Personally, I blame the high-profile pundits, media and journalists that constantly went on about football being out of date, behind the times and crying out to use the technology to make the game “better”.

Is the game “better”? For me no, but there is no going back, over time I honestly think this may have more longer term and profound impacts on the popularity of football, we can no longer explain to the younger generation the rules of the game or enjoy a “live” match as what we are watching is subject to get stopped reviewed for several minutes and then re-refereed.

Maybe that will become the live event watching and listening to people in front of computers watch videos and give their opinions, if so will football lose market share to eSports as it does not seem so different? It’s sad, but as big Ange says it’s my problem, I have to deal with this change. Those that think we can go back to pre-VAR are probably the same deluded people that thought VAR could fix all decisions.
Paul K, London

Proposals for VAR improvement
Whilst I’d get rid of VAR were it my decision, I think whether we like it or not (we don’t) VAR is here to stay – way too much time, effort and money has been spent implementing the technology for it to be ditched – certainly not yet – without at least more efforts to improve how it is being used. The problem is not the technology itself, just the application of it and the reason for that is that the premier league/PGMOL/FIFA/whoever are trying to get more out of this technology than is needed or was originally intended.

In my opinion, the only way of making VAR work is to simplify the whole process and remove a lot of the technical f**kery that goes on and leads to ridiculous decisions. So I was thinking of what practical, simple changes could be made:

1) Vastly shorten the time available to VAR to make a decision. If it can’t be checked and verified within say 5 seconds by looking again at a replay of the action from 1 or 2 angles it’s not a clear error of the officials and the on field decision remains. This would have to go hand in hand with an instruction to the on field refs from making the decision- in most cases the decisions expected to stay the same as on field so they cannot rely on VAR re-reffing the game.

2) Remove all the lines being drawn to calculate offsides down to ridiculous margins. This goes hand in hand with item 1 above as they won’t have time to do it, but again should just ensure really obvious errors are corrected

3) Have the referee ask a specific question to the VAR official and that is all they can review, similar to how VAR is used, fairly effectively, in rugby. Was there an offside? Was there a handball by number 8? Etc. VAR shouldn’t be scanning for any possible error that hasn’t even been spotted by any official or even any of the players. VAR should be a tool for the referee to use, not some process imposed on them to have their decisions questioned or overturned.

4) Keep fans in the stadium informed about what is going on. VAR has definitely sucked some of the enjoyment for match going fans in particular. You cannot celebrate goals and sometimes wait around for several minutes to get a decision, by which time the initial elation of the goal has dissipated, anger has had time to build up and the whole thing leaves you feeling either a bit flat, confused, or angry and possibly all three. The question from the ref and answer from VAR should be broadcast in the stadium and the replays shown. This would at least bring fans along with the officials when decisions that have a major impact on the game are made.

5) Change the rule about VAR getting involved in yellow card decisions. With the above items, particularly 3) above, there shouldn’t be big concerns about VAR getting too involved and re-refereeing the game. Yellow cards can have big impacts in games and it just makes sense to use the technology if it must be used to correct obviously incorrect yellow card decisions too.

I think the above changes would shift the power much more to the hands of the officials on the pitch which is where it should be – having greater accountability for the referee and linesmen should drive improvements in their performance, which you would hope would minimise reliance on VAR and reduce the number of decisions getting overturned.

I’m sure others will pick holes in this, but I think the above would be largely popular changes and drive improvement in the use of the technology that is consistent across games.

Of course the powers that be are anything but sensible and pragmatic…
Dominic F, AFC

…I know Johnny Nic thinks that sport is about human flaws and emotions but a key foundation of sport is the laws of the game and fair play. The entire spectacle depends on those laws and it’s seeing players doing amazing things within those laws and boundaries that makes it so thrilling. A lot of the traditionalists like Johnny Nic need to realise that tech works quite fine in other sports and other football leagues. It was implemented fairly well at the world cup last year, literally the highest profile sporting event in the world. In England there’s massive user errors with VAR and that’s what needs to be addressed.

Also to everyone saying that the Arsenal vs Newcastle VAR issues were all inconclusive or subjective, please take another look at Joelinton jumping in the air and pushing Gabriel down while landing when they contested the ball for that “goal”. And then come back to me with what you think and I could give you a free diagnosis. On top of this Joelinton got away with a coward punch attempt as well.

I have this image of the VAR room being full of empty coffee cups, a haze of cigarette smoke in the air and some guys spinning a gameshow wheel to make decisions.
Vish (AFC), Melbourne, Aus

Move on? We have…
Stewart, Chicago LFC challenges Spurs fans to ‘accept it and move on’ as we expected Liverpool fans to after ‘the worst VAR decision ever’.

Two things Stewart – 1) it wasn’t the worst VAR decision ever. It was a marginal offside call they got wrong. Ok they got it wrong in a unique and ridiculous way, but there is no reason to say it was any worse then Brentford Arsenal last year, or the rashford non offside against City, or the wolves robbery against Liverpool for that matter. You really do need to accept it and move on. But more importantly 2). We have accepted it and moved on.

Read the mailbox your mail appears in. Watch Ange’s post match interview. Are there howls of complaint and demands for replays or fundamental overhauls? No. I thought Reece James should clearly have gone and think it’s highly likely we would have won if he did, but these things happen and frankly I’m far more bothered about the positive (the way our 9 men battled and could easily have got something from the game) and the negatives (the injuries to arguably our two lost important players). I’ve moved on. You should try it.
Phil, London

365 Chan
Sadly the Mailbox is increasingly resembling a Trump supporters rally, with claims of conspiracies abounding whenever a decision goes against your team, and an inability to understand that opinions are not facts, no matter how many times you repeat them.

Lets face it, we’re not good with even a basic understanding of certain phrases, like Fit And Proper Person (doesn’t really mean what it sounds like) or Financial Fair Play (nothing at all to do with fair play at all) but that doesn’t stop us presenting straw man arguments that have absolutely nothing to do with what the phrases actually mean. Even European Super League brought out a knee jerk reaction based on people thinking that it meant the top teams leaving the Premiership, rather than it being a bad idea of how to reform the Champions League. Which brings me to Clear and Obvious…

In the last couple of days we’ve seen the now standard bending of the term to fit someone’s own bias – both that any “clear and obvious” mistake should be spotted immediately rather than requiring any sort of analysis, and that only being offside by a small margin doesn’t qualify. Essentially two argumenta that VAR should be scrapped for making the correct decision.

And as for the claim that VAR promised 100% accuracy (really, where’s the evidence for that?) and that it should be binned if it can’t hit that target…

We need to draw a line between the objective (was somebody offside?) and the subjective (was the player in the offside position interfering with play?). And we need to accept that our opinion may not be the only one that can be made for any subjective decisions, and that subjective decision may not be consistent, but that’s fine as long as they are allowed within the laws of the game.

I know that reasonableness is the death of punditry, but we might try to apply the legal concept of Reasonableness – could a reasonable person make the same decision presented with the same information? This isn’t about one outcome, it is to consider whether the decision make is within the range of possibilities.

The Spurs Chelsea game is an excellent example of this distinction between objective and subjective decision (offside goals were correctly ruled out, foul play was reviewed). As a Chelsea fan I might argue that a couple of red cards might have been awarded earlier, but I can’t argue that not issuing them based on the evidence wasn’t within the referee’s options (although I will concede that it’s easy to have that opinion when the VAR decisions not to award red cards at that point in time only delayed the players being sent off for a short while)

So let’s all calm down a little before declaring the death of football. Sometimes VAR is the problem, but quite often it’s not, and maybe it’s you.
Monkey Steve