Erik ten Hag is failing and Man Utd fans are deluded if they cite VAR as problem

The second Mailbox after the Man Utd defeat in Copenhagen is brilliant once again, with opposition fans weighing in now.

Send your views on this and any other subject to theeditor@football365.com

Ten Haggered
Long may he reign, really, but his post-match conference is excruciating. In the modern game, Rashford’s challenge is a sending off all day long. He actually stepped into the defender and brought his foot – studs and all – on the ankle. Yes, it’s looks nastier when slowed down – they always do – but it looks pretty awful in real time too. Ten Hag mutters the words “he went for the ball” as if this somehow means that therefore it cannot be a foul. It’s pathetic.

I’ll be interested to see if any United fans – who are getting increasingly more deranged as the weeks fly by – have the wherewithal to accept the decision, especially as every one I saw was perfectly happy with the Curtis Jones sending-off.

The penalty (for Copenhagen) had two clear handballs, and WTF is Maguire doing with his hands up there? This is classic Harry and again, in the modern game, an obvious penalty, far more obvious than the one United got in the second half, where the ball was headed on to the defender from about six inches away. An offside on the second? That one is more debatable, but again, in the modern game these decisions tend to go towards the attacking team.

Like pretty much everyone, I have huge issues with VAR and its implementation, but a worrying by-product of the mistakes it has made is managers like Arteta and Ten Hag trying to re-write reality and play the victim. There will always be arguments about the interpretation of incidents, and all the technology in the world is not going to remove the arbitrary nature of decision making, so teams will always feel hard done by.

But there were no clear and obvious mistakes with the Newcastle goal. Nothing has turned up to demonstrate that an error was definitively made. And it will be the same from last night. Ten Hag might argue, as many losing managers have done before him, that some of those decisions could have gone another way. But he is trying to argue – like Arteta – that mistakes were made, and he is using the VAR controversy – like Arteta – to excuse the fact that his team just got beaten, and in Ten Hag’s case, to hide the fact that right now, he is failing as a manager.

VAR was not at fault here. VAR did not make mistakes here. This is not a Diaz type incident where it was black and white, these are shades of grey. We expect losing managers to bemoan decisions made, but the idea that there were gross miscarriages of justice in either game is absolute nonsense.

I see Ten Hag also talking again about turning corners, and that has been the death knell of many a manager. I think that he will do just enough to hold on this season – I pray that he does – but he is not up to the task, and he is not the man to Make United Great Again.
Matthew (looking forward the United fans meltdown and hoping that one or two can actually see what happened last night)

…Despite United being so rubbish this season, it is hard to believe they allowed a 2-0 lead result into a 4-3 loss. Pathetic to say the least.

I don’t care if the Rashford red card was harsh, and ‘changed’ the game, how can you concede two goals so early after the red card before half time? Ten Haag has proved he is tactically poor as a manager given he WAITED until half time to make a tactical change following the sending off (There were +13 added mins due to interruptions earlier in the game). Also when Amrabat came on, he was f***ing awful, Eriksen may as well have stayed on given he has some form of football intelligence.

The team actually played well for the first 35 minutes of the game, better than I have seen at any point this season and should have been 3-0 by the 30th minute, but then a complete collapse afterwards only a few teams are capable of. The team managed to get back into the lead to make it 3-2 after receiving a penalty, but once again Ten Haag didn’t bring on any additional defenders/midfielders to protect that 1 goal lead after leading again, and instead he brought on Mount for Hojlund (Who was by far United’s best player along with Aaron Wan-Bissaka) and once again the ex-Chelsea prick who came for money only didn’t do a thing.

Three goals were conceded from crosses into the box, and United have managed to turn Varane into an average defender. All hope is lost for the season and its not even December in the season.

Ten Haag OUT after yesterday’s game, enough excuses now. F*** knows who even wants to come in as the next manager, but I think Luton will beat United at home next game and that will be that for the stubborn bold uncharismatic donut of a manager. If United sacked Van Gaal, a prestigious experienced Dutch manager, why are United sticking with this guy? Yesterday was unacceptable, simple as that and my last f*** as a fan were given yesterday too. All eras do come to an end, and Ten Haag’s has come much earlier than it should have, but the standards and quality is so bad, just get a caretaker/ex-United player in for the time being.
Rami, Dubai

Unai who would be good next at Man Utd?
Remarkable to me not to see Unai Emery listed among the candidates to succeed Ten Hag if Utd are again inclined to pass off all their ills as merely managerial issues. Emery has experience of the Premier League, experience of turning around a sinking club with great effect, and experience of properly coaching a team and its individual players to get the most out of what he has without relying exclusively on the transfer market. Insofar as all of that is true, he is actually the ideal manager for Utd, addressing the very specific issues they have right now. More importantly, he is potentially a far more realistic option than some of the names on the list.

For a long time, Utd could coast on the fumes of Ferguson’s success and continue to attract high-calibre managers despite their struggles on the pitch. However, those days are long gone now. A whole generation has grown up seeing the club as a basket-case whose ambitious are strictly limited to a top-four league finish and maybe a day out at Wembley with a shot at the Carabao Cup (both unlikely/impossible this season). Ferguson is a monument from the past – his success irrelevant to the present. Ten years is a long time. As F365 rightly point out, there’s no world in which Zinedine Zidane would consider this club worth his time.

That said, Emery, who is enjoying enormous success at Villa, might very well come to the same conclusion himself. That’s where Utd are right now. It’s gone from a rebuilding job to a rescue mission and even Emery might consider it beneath himself.
Damian, Dublin

Man Utd fan reaction is deluded
The reaction to Man United defeat is, and I’ll leave the media out of this, coz the media has been a bit soft in their reaction, but the fans, it’s entertaining.

It’s beyond ridiculous, some of the take aways and the recent article that spoke about how deluded and toxic the fan base is was, is very much on point.

Let’s start with VAR, they are showing slow-mo videos that show the tackle being worse than it is. That’s one of the arguments being tossed out there. Quick question, when someone goes to hospital with a broken leg, do the take a very , very still X-ray photo of the leg, or do the take a 4k video or the leg and tell the surgeon, they you go Doc we have posted it on tiktok, hope it helps. Off course you need still images to make a decision on how dangerous something was, is or even potentially, could develop to be. Some players play through the injury through adrenaline and mental strength, and then news comes out, player xyz picked up an injury during the Man U game. Honestly though, that looked like an ankle-breaking injury.

Another argument I heard, he was protecting the ball. I don’t have a problem with that, protect the ball Rashford, but don’t appear to break an ankle while doing it. If Rashford or any player decides to move his body in what appears dangerous, they should live with the consequences. For example, that Havertz lunge on Saturday, should have been a red. Next point, well like I pointed out earlier, the player could still be hurt just playing through the pain, and that looked like a dangerous challenge.

The penalties evened themselves out, handballs. What I didn’t hear was, how the decision making affected the Man U team. After the red, shouldn’t Man U have reacted quickly to keep the two-goal advantage, they did say they are a possession-heavy team, so would it not have been wise to just bore out the game?

A team in Copenhagen who they barely beat last time at home, just play keep ball. See, that sought of introspection is what I didn’t hear, it was everybody’s else’s fault. Referee, VAR, unlucky, injury. They appear to be poorly coached, only play in spurts ,their new signings aren’t making the team. That’s another thing, why sign rejects and bench players like Mount, from teams you clearly beat the season before. Sign a Man City reject, a Madrid reject, you know, teams better than what Man U is, or star players from teams lower, Harry Kane, Rice etc.
Dave (That Dutch experiment is over, it’s just a matter of time), Somewhere

…I am bemused by the reactions of most TV pundits on Rashford’s red card last night. For any football pundit to question that red card but insist that the foul on Gabriel in Newcastle Vs Arsenal game is not a foul or subjective is way beyond me. He stepped on his ankle without kicking the ball.

For a club as big as Manchester United to fail to keep a 2 goal lead for 10 minutes against Copenhagen is a big disgrace. Questions should be asked of the coaching team and all the players on the pitch.

But the pundits and the fans want us to believe that Manchester United were robbed by the referee and that VAR should be scrapped.

This is ridiculous!!!
Azeez Yusuf

Fast becoming a Man Utd fan as this is entertaining…
No doubt Man U fans are furiously typing away on their keyboards about referee bias, the red card, and all other manners of nonsense. Those sweaty fingers hammering away in fury to get their mails in this morning’s mailbox.

Well let’s have a bit of a reality check here shall we lads? To start off with, the Copenhagen player whose ankle Rashford stamped on should count himself lucky he was even able to play the rest of the game after such a dangerous tackle. Yeah yeah I hear the outraged cries of “but he didn’t mean it!” In the back. So what? Lol. Do you think every red card handed out should go to a player whose sole intention was to hospitalize the opposing player? It was a potential ankle breaker, Rashfords assaulting foot was nowhere near the ball, and the rules dictate that is a red card.

Now that we’ve gotten that nonsense out the way, let’s get to the real meaty parts. Most of the Man U fanbase is probably grateful that Rashford got sent off to provide the perfect deflection from what was another capitulation, another humiliation, and another pitiful defeat under the stewardship of super Erik.

A 2-0 lead with just over a half of football left, and this billion dollar team couldn’t do a better job of holding on to it with even 10 men against a team assembled for a fraction of an Antony? Not only that, they then managed to take the lead back! Through a penalty that is a far more contentious talking point than the blatant red card the Man U faithful are banging on about. And they still conspired to lose 4-3, not even able to salvage a draw from there. Absolutely hilarious stuff.

And to make things even sweeter for the Copenhagen fans who would have felt aggrieved at a harsh penalty given against them, Bruno then makes a silly arrogant face at the crowd with that little haircut Garnacho shushing the crowd. That aged well didn’t it lads? Absolutely glorious stuff. I am slowly but surely being converted in to a Man U fan. Sports is about entertainment, and by God these lads are providing it in spades every single week. Erik in!
AngePoch

The ref ruined my birthday celebrations
Just when you think we’re playing well by putting in a proper performance which has been lacking all season, strolling the game 2-0, another bloody frustrating decision goes against us. Had it not, I am confident we would have won that game easily 4 or 5. But no, it wouldn’t be a United game this season without some ineptitude from the officials.

Anyone who thought that deserved a red card has never played the game at any level, is an ABU, or is Robbie bloody Savage. Rashford had eyes only for the ball, had no intention of fouling the guy never mind hurting him and was trying to shield the ball. Yes, it ended up being a clumsy foul but give him a yellow and move on. Note the referee saw the incident at the time and didn’t even blow for a foul! Of course when the VAR then puts pressure on by calling him over to review in super slow mo, it is only going to end one way.

The two penalties were a joke and there were some individual errors near the end. But tired players, who have been up against an extra man for most of the game, will make mistakes. One point is no difference to zero points in our situation, a draw would have felt like a defeat anyway and we would still need to go to Galatasaray and win before likely needing to beat Bayern at home. This could still happen of course, but what started so well was once again ruined by incompetent officiating and, perhaps worse still, tarnished what was an otherwise pleasant birthday.
Garey Vance, MUFC

Rashford never a red
Marcus Rashford puts his foot down and it’s a red card. He has not put it down a dangerous or reckless way. He has no knowledge there is any part of someone’s body there. He has literally just put his foot down and unfortunately for him there is someone’s ankle there. And according to the ref and that utter gob shite Robbie Savage it’s a definite red.

Romero purposefully kicks out at someone, and no matter how petulant it may be, he’s still looked to hurt someone. Udogie launches into a two footed challenge which is reckless and dangerous, Havertz… well you know where I’m going. All 3 of these challenges are deplorable as they’re either extremely reckless or designed to hurt.

Rashford’s challenge, which is neither reckless or designed to hurt, is deemed worse than all 3.

That’s absolutely bonkers.
Chris, Stourbridge

Still pro-VAR but the players are playing the rules, not the game
One thing I despise about the current application of VAR, is that it promotes players playing the rules and not the game.

In the Chelsea vs Spurs games, it was how the Sterling handball goal would stand if he just squared it and someone else scored. They’ve legalized handballs so long as the person handling it didn’t do it blatantly and they didn’t score, but controlling the ball with your hand to set up a goal is technically allowed.

It’s much like handballs for crosses. An accidental handball from close range can be given. This promotes wingers aiming to hit hands as opposed to trying good crosses. It’s an obvious choice when you consider one creates an almost certain goal, and one creates potentially a shot on goal.

Divers have always been a thing, but now players know a bit of handsyness in the box, they go down, and if VAR can/wants to see it, it can be given. Hojlund’s hands on Rodri was enough for the ref to give it, despite it being very unlikely he would get to the ball.

Hard challenges can now be labelled as “subjective”. I’ve seen Casemiro make a fair tackle, with his foot going over the ball and into the opposition’s leg. Not out of control and nobody was injured, but it was a red. Udogie vs Sterling was an out of control two-footed challenge, but because Sterling wasn’t hurt or followed through on, it was a yellow. So theoretically, had Sterling acted injured or stayed in the challenge to get hurt, his team would have gained an advantage. So you can do wrong and get away with it and you can do right and be punished.

Last night Rashford is sent off for trying to shield the ball, and his foot landing on the defender behind him. No intention, nobody was seriously hurt, Rashford was only looking at the ball, straight red. First time I have ever seen that. I’ve no idea how you coach players not to do what Rashford did.

Then United get a ridiculous penalty for a handball from a defender about a foot from Maguire’s big old head. Like, what are they both meant to do? How is this a deserved advantage for a crime that had no intention, and no ability to stop it or no advantage lost to it?

Football games being decided for these reasons is what takes the heart and soul out of the game. It rewards cheaters, technicalities and those willing to win-at-all-costs. But it does more damage than just that, it rules against honesty, and players being noble. Like not cheating is letting your team down. Think of a player who stays on their feet in the box when going down makes more sense.

I’m still in the “VAR should stay” camp, as I truly don’t think league titles, relegations and finals should not be decided by things such as the “Hand of God”, but if the above persists, then titles will be decided by “VAR missing that won them the league”, or “That was a ‘subjective’ cup final win”.
Calvino (Roony Bardghji: remember this kid)

Is there an end to VAR?
Another match, another VAR spectacle. I grew up around football, my dad was a FIFA ref. For over 30 years I’ve tuned in to watch at least weekly, pre children almost daily. I would define a good chunk of myself by my love of football.

But I’m honestly kind of over it now with VAR. It makes watching football less appealing. There is less actual football to get excited about, goals to celebrate and fluency to get caught up in. I’m a United fan – I’ve seen some horror shows of decisions against us, my favourite being the 3 full defenders playing Scholes onside for Mourinho’s Porto slide. It happens, being a linesman is hard – I know I used to do it often.

But now we have VAR, and no one knows anything anymore. The only certainty is that Dermot Gallagher will tell us the decision was correct. One week, a player standing 10 yards from a keeper is deemed interfering, goal chalked off. Next week, a player standing 2 yards from a keeper, goal not chalked off. One week, a ball richoes onto a hand in a natural position, no handball. Next week, penalty. Red cards only given in slow motion, freeze frame replays. Only way to get the replay is feign injury. Don’t feign injury, play doesn’t stop, no red card. Score a goal, at least 3 grown men scrounge over every possible infringement in a genuine attempt to rule it out. While fans in the stadium sit in silence.

It’s awful. It hasn’t improved anything. Decisions are still just as inconsistent. I haven’t seen a single match this season where a major, game-changing decision didn’t go to VAR, and be ruled in a way that was inconsistent from other matches or even within that match itself.

I don’t know how we can change it. I do know that we could though. Imagine every match this weekend a minute was picked, and every single televised match in England chanted f*ck VAR for a solid minute. Or something nicer, I dunno.
Ryan, Bermuda

…I like to think of myself as quite a reasoned fella most of the time who isn’t blinded by support of Utd and can see when a decision is correct, justified etc. For example the man ‘offside’ last night for their first goal. If it’s disallowed then i can see why but I’m not going to throw my toys out the pram as I doubt Onana even registered he was there until it was pointed out.

Also the game wasn’t lost on the sending off but by Utd having some of the most mentally weak footballers available. Dalot never was or will be good enough aside from at high fiving others when he makes a mistake. Varane wasn’t playing in front of Evans for a reason and that reason was evidenced by the fourth goal.

AWB had a good game aside form the hoof back to Onana (did it go out?) and then just casually strolling over after the wayward shot for the 4th hadn’t gone out but these are the small margins which win/lose games.

However the whole VAR thing is really getting to a point of no return as in ‘it needs to change or fans will start to not return’. The Rashford sending off last night (and Curtis Jones’ against Spurs…see how reasonable I can be!) are just examples how badly the technology is used. Not one player or official even registered that their was an issue and not even an inkling of an appeal from any Copenhagen player.

Yes the guy was in pain and justifiably as it would have hurt but as has been said many time injury doesn’t necessarily mean there has been an offence to be punished (imagine the punishment for David Buust’s injury if we applied that logic!…kids look it up) VAR has no concept of ‘the game’ and how these things just happen naturally as a result of basic footballing principals such as protecting the ball

Anyway that’s a long winded way of saying VAR needs ridden of (never going to happen) or some notion of the game needs applying such as

* Ex player(s) need adding to the panel to advise on elements of the game with regards these incidents:

* STOP showing the f*cking freeze frame of where there is contact. Both the Rashford and Jones incidents look horrendous in a still but at real speed barely register…well the Jones tackle a little more but its still harsh in my eyes.

* There needs to be some kind of appeals system a la Cricket/Tennis. I doubt very much Copenhagen would have raised any alarm at the tackle last night.

Anyway sure others have opinions or ideas but i just think we are nearing breaking point with how the game is being refereed and we are getting close to a ‘Voice’ over the Tannoy controlling the game a la Speedball 2 on the Spectrum!

Hopefully they balls it up in Turkey and finish 4th but nothing surprises me with Utd these days. Also not sure ETH can be blamed for this and the whole furore about Hojlund going off is a farce. He was knackered.
Midland Red

Where are the left-backs?
Only a club like Manchester United can have their 1st choice LB , 2nd choice LB, loanee to cover the 1st and 2nd choice LBs injured, playing the 2nd choice RB at LB and now conceding most goals down that left side.

Harsh, Sad but True.

No Left Backs Left.
Shivam Verma

Myth-busters
I thought I’d post a question for the mailbox to try and encourage some anecdotes from the past, as the dialogue on VAR is just utterly broken.

One of the things I’ve noticed is there’s a kind of path-to-mythos now, from someone making a joke or observation about something, to it then becoming a fact. Akin to the ‘Dennis Law relegated United’ sort of thing.

Things we hear as ‘truth’ but they aren’t actually accurate. But what’s really interesting is, when people write in to say these things, even if they get a billion replies back outlining how that isn’t actually right, they still write in repeating it over and over. I call it Badwolf-onomics because whatever Pravda-esque United forum or fanzine he gets his data from has warped his mind. An example that’s easy to find, because it’s relatively easy to search your sent items and find ‘badwolf’, is from 2021 where he’d said Jurgen needed an entirely new team? He didn’t, I wrote in, a basic and cursory Wikipedia search proves it; he’s still saying it.

Outside of that, you get other mailboxes saying LFC struggled without their centre-backs in ’21. Reader, they were 5 points clear at the top at Christmas, 11 games after losing VVD, as well as Matip, Gomez et al. And also were undefeated in the last 10 games with Nat Phillips and Rhys Williams. They collapsed when the centre backs AND Midfielders (Henderson, Fabinho, Milner, Thiago and Ox – obviously) were all out. Still, even now, you hear ‘LFC collapsed without VVD’.

I obviously notice it more, from the club I support, but I’m absolutely not saying LFC have it worse than anyone else. The examples from LFC are just because I know the examples of LFC, as I support them. I’m not writing in to infer LFC have it different.

This is just a call to arms for people to talk about the myths of their own clubs. Please. I want to read something new. Please can people just write in about things that I think I know about Sheffield United, Newcastle, etc etc. Its got to be better than hearing yet again how VAR is fine and it’s actually just the implementation.

If you want more LFC, then the ghost goal from Garcia, when the ref has said a billion times if it wasn’t a goal then Cech is sent off and it’s a penalty.

A good one you bizarrely only seemingly get from Arsenal fans is that City lost the league to LFC due to covid. baffling. LFC accumulated 55 points by Christmas when Pep conceded the title, having got 97 the previous year. 152 points from a possible 171! After Pep conceded, LFC proceeded to win another 7 games in a row.

By the stage Covid paused the league LFC had lost 2 games in two years, and now needed to lose every possible fixture before the end of the season in order to give City a chance. There was a mail from a gooner a few days back to say City were affected by Covid (which they apparently saw coming 6 months in advance), or some statistical gubbins about the number of goal scorers they had? They won the season before by literally 1.1cm not being over the line? The LFC squad was literally unchanged and they clocked up 97 and 99 points.

There’s merit in analysing data but not when a far simpler conclusion is City gave up / focussed on the cups when they realised they couldn’t catch LFC…. And perhaps why they didn’t give up last year because Arsenal imploded after Christmas and gave them 19 games to overtake them.

Anyway. Hoping for something different to read.
Tom G